00:00:10:03 - 00:00:12:19 Unknown 00:00:12:21 - 00:00:21:16 Benjamin Haslem Hi. Welcome to Up the Creek!, where we look at how institutions and individuals found themselves up the proverbial and our sector efforts to reach calmer waters. 00:00:21:17 - 00:00:47:23 Mark Forbes I'm Ben Haslem and I'm Mark Forbes. As journos, we prompted resignations and royal commissions. As crisis consultants, we protect reputation when crisis comes. Now, today, we're going to turn our reputation eye towards a striking visage of Gina Rinehart, in the form of a portrait that has captured so much attention at the National Gallery and not a small amount of lobbying by Gina to try and see it removed. 00:00:47:24 - 00:01:07:20 Benjamin Haslem Well, that's right. She and her company, Hancock, instigate a national lobbying campaign. Even pulled in the Australian swimming team and some of the best swimmers in Australia to go out to the media and try and get this portrait, which she obviously disliked, taken down. But there’s is famous, term we use in communications and psychology as well, called the Streisand effect. 00:01:07:20 - 00:01:23:24 Benjamin Haslem And this is this, in fact, in the Wikipedia page on the Streisand effect, when they have examples of the Streisand effect. Guess who's there now? Gina. She's already been added in. What's the Streisand effect? Okay, Barbra Streisand had or still has a beautiful house on a cliff top. 00:01:24:01 - 00:01:25:17 Mark Forbes She was an actress back in your day, wasn't she mate? 00:01:25:17 - 00:01:48:20 Benjamin Haslem That's right. In the olden days. That's right. Yes. And, she had this beautiful house and some environmental, department in the United States decided to have a photograph of this house as part of, a report on coastal erosion. Well, Babs didn't like the idea of having her house associated with coastal erosion, so she sent her lawyers off to court to, say, tell them to take my photograph out of this particular document. 00:01:48:20 - 00:02:04:00 Benjamin Haslem Well, of course, the media picked it up. And instead of a, you know, maybe a couple of dozen people who read this report, being aware that Babs has got a house on top of a cliff, millions of people have now seen the photograph of Barbara Streisand’s House because it's on the Wikipedia page, and it became known as the Streisand Effect. 00:02:04:00 - 00:02:13:16 Benjamin Haslem So the lesson here, Mark, is if you're embarrassed about something first think to yourself, who's really going to see it? And if it's not many, then maybe just let the old sleeping dogs lie. 00:02:13:18 - 00:02:34:16 Mark Forbes It was in the National Gallery, but don't you stop to think that rolling out this procession of sort of gold medals swimmers, one is more than passing strange, but two it’s actually going to cause, you know, some, some degree of attention. I mean, they went really hard on this. 00:02:34:17 - 00:02:51:13 Benjamin Haslem They got picked up in America. I think it was at Colbert or so. What? I mean, I think Colbert might have picked up on it. I mean, talk about the whole world now knows about size iteration, but a lot of the world now knows there's a woman in Australia who's Gina Rinehart. She's the wealthiest woman in Australia, and she's a bit precious when it comes to portraits. 00:02:51:15 - 00:03:13:19 Mark Forbes Well, I think every one of those $50 million that she's pumped into sponsorship for team, counts basically. Although I think she's, she's, she's fallen out with Swimming Australia, I think because she had a whole bunch of conditions around a sponsorship, one of which was it, Dawn Fraser “Our Dawny”, as Gina likes to call to be appointed chair. 00:03:13:19 - 00:03:41:14 Mark Forbes And I thought this was a bit too much like outside influence in the in the organization. But she has persisted in individually sponsoring most of our leading, Olympic, Olympic swimmers. and obviously with this largesse comes expectations and, one of which she's lobbying, our art galleries, in relation to what they choose to exhibit. 00:03:41:15 - 00:03:50:04 Mark Forbes I wouldn't have thought that really being a swimmer necessarily gave you much status as an art critic, but but but I may be wrong here. 00:03:50:04 - 00:04:05:02 Benjamin Haslem I mean, it's interesting what I'm apparently some of the individual swimmers actually came out. Maybe I've taken my eye off swimming recently, but I don't know if if someone like Ian Thorpe would come out 20 years ago and said that the the portrait should be taken down, maybe that would have some, some kind of influence? I should apologize too earlier. 00:04:05:02 - 00:04:12:10 Benjamin Haslem I said going into bat I had my sporting metaphors is slightly twisted, but maybe they I know they jumped into the pool and did a lap for her. 00:04:12:12 - 00:04:34:16 Mark Forbes I mean, it was interesting. One of the key, one of the key lines, I think I did see the letter that they wrote to the National Gallery and they said the reason that they, they, they, they objected to the painting and it must be removed. It was purely and honestly that because it is offensive to Gina Rinehart. So at least they're fairly, they're fairly, upfront with that. 00:04:34:16 - 00:04:59:01 Mark Forbes But I mean, you do you do you do wonder what other strings are attached. Actually, I did see, I think the eyes dug this up, that she, as part of a sponsorship in 2017, she insisted that she be allowed to swim, in the, in the Olympic pool at the 2017 world champion. it's it's not like, she doesn't have form in sort of managing to magnet like, attract negative publicity around sponsorships, which are of course, meant to bring brand benefits. But, there was that whole Netball Australia saga where she wanted to emblazoned the, the national team with the Hancock Prospecting prospecting logo. 00:05:49:02 - 00:05:58:04 Mark Forbes And one of the the members of, indigenous descent that unsurprisingly objected to to to wearing these. Yeah. 00:05:58:04 - 00:06:20:20 Benjamin Haslem Well, the a bit of context here. I mean, if you're an indigenous Australian and you're playing any sport and the name Hancock is on your uniform, it's worth pointing out that her late father, Mr. Hancock, did actually want to, I believe, forcibly sterilized Indigenous Australians. So I, I can kind of understand how they wouldn't really feel very comfortable running around with that on their, on their tops. 00:06:21:00 - 00:06:32:23 Mark Forbes Well, you know, I think these fries was breeding them out. I think, it's it's, thankfully the world has, has changed a little since then, but, and. 00:06:32:23 - 00:06:36:11 Benjamin Haslem I should say, I don't think Gina has ever endorsed that view either. We should make that quite clear. 00:06:36:12 - 00:07:01:13 Mark Forbes Well, I think that one of the one of the one of the reasons behind the dispute was that there was no indication that she would disown those views of her late father. And so Netball Australia lost. They lost a $30 million. a bit of a shame in a way, because a netballers could have perhaps lobbied the National Gallery to, to, to to remove Gina’s portrait. 00:07:01:15 - 00:07:04:19 Benjamin Haslem So what does it demonstrate, Mark? What does it say? 00:07:04:21 - 00:07:38:23 Mark Forbes I think it just demonstrates the foolishness of trying to defend your image and your reputation with tactics that are almost inevitably going to damage that reputation. I mean, it looks like the rich and powerful telling people what to say, audio recording around these, they, these athletes, at a at a will. but the bigger outcome is, I think that there'd be very few Australians who have not seen the portrait now of Gina. 00:07:39:00 - 00:07:55:00 Mark Forbes I understand that the attendances at the National Gallery have shot up. And in the any cause for concern there, is that the marketing people didn't think to order a range of Gina merch and mugs because the public have been demanding them. There's there's probably a business opportunity there for someone. 00:07:55:02 - 00:08:16:20 Benjamin Haslem So from the rich and powerful in the West to the place where the rich and powerful live in Melbourne, we're going to draw or turn our attention now to the seat of Kooyong, which has been in the news over the last few days. And, so the story is here that, Monique Ryan, who is, a Melbourne doctor and is the member for Kooyong, the federal city of Kooyong. 00:08:17:01 - 00:08:43:09 Benjamin Haslem She is what's colloquially known as a teal independent. the the news broke on the weekend that Josh Frydenberg, the former federal treasurer who lost the seat to Monique Ryan back at the last federal election, was considering running for the seat again of Kooyong after they're they suggested redrawing the boundaries to to include a number of very wealthy parts of Melbourne that were actually in the former seat of Higgins, which looks like it's going to be disbanded. 00:08:43:11 - 00:09:05:16 Benjamin Haslem and so the story broke on Sunday that there was some consideration for Josh, if you know that the Liberal Party recently actually preselected, the very talented Amelia Harmer, she's Oxford educated and from the blue Victorian Liberal Party stock of Sir Rupert Harmer, who was, of course, the Victorian premier many, many years ago. I just thought this was absolutely an extraordinary thing to do. 00:09:05:16 - 00:09:21:10 Benjamin Haslem The Liberal Party, we all know, has got a “woman problem”, as they like to talk about. And suddenly here was Josh just going to come in and and must admit he didn't actually say this. It was just rumor and not and knock off and knock off a woman who'd been pre-selected in a seat that sailed by the teals. 00:09:21:11 - 00:09:42:19 Mark Forbes Went well, the, for the libs have got form. I mean, not only did they want to have quotas when it comes to the crunch every time, if there's, a choice between a good woman and a man with a few, party connections, you know, who's got who's going to win. But, and, we have seen a tactical withdrawal by Josh. 00:09:42:19 - 00:10:10:01 Mark Forbes But let's be clear about this pretense. It wasn't me. I understand that Josh has actually been has conducted several rounds of polling, with a Liberal Party connected firm about his prospects in, in Kooyong, essentially, since he was disposed and maintains an active interest. And clearly it was prompted by the fact they'd been a redistribution of the seat, which which makes some differences. 00:10:10:03 - 00:10:15:21 Mark Forbes but clearly he was doing, I would suggest, or his proponents were doing what we call “kite flying”. 00:10:15:23 - 00:10:37:16 Benjamin Haslem But it makes you wonder, why didn't they hold the pre-selections after the redistribution instead of before the redistribution? Because suddenly we now have the seat of Higgins, which the libs had lost to the Labour Party at the last election, being absorbed by surrounding seats and the, you know, the suburbs, I think of of Toorak in particular, is now going to go into Kooyong, which means it probably gives the liberals a greater chance. 00:10:37:21 - 00:10:54:21 Benjamin Haslem And also the background, if for those who aren't up to speed on Australian politics, is that the teals the whole motivation of the teals, they're all women. And it was and it was one of their selling points was the fact that they were women and they were running in Liberal seats where the Liberal Party had a bad reputation about its treatment of women. 00:10:54:21 - 00:11:05:14 Benjamin Haslem I mean, it's just look, look, Josh Frydenberg is well respected even on both sides. Politics. But does matter. This would have been a disaster for the Liberal Party. He wouldn't probably have won the seat. 00:11:05:19 - 00:11:26:11 Mark Forbes Well, if it if he wants, if he wants to make a comeback, which is, which is he's right to try and do they want to be upfront about it, want to nominate for pre-selection and go through that process rather than trying to have your cake in the private sector he needed to he obviously wants to be, I think, drafted in by acclamation as a new saviour of. 00:11:26:13 - 00:11:27:13 Benjamin Haslem The Messiah complex. 00:11:27:15 - 00:11:38:08 Mark Forbes Talking about an end, I mean, I think it's just a bit naive because if you're Peter Dutton, do you want the former treasurer to come in? 00:11:38:14 - 00:12:02:02 Benjamin Haslem I should point out that I'm not saying Josh has got a messiah complex. The Liberal Party has a messiah complex. They desperately trying to find the next Messiah to, to lead them to, you know, out of out of the wilderness. And, I mean, the point for the Liberal Party is that they, they, the Labour Party actually didn't poll that well in terms of primary vote at the last election, but the libs lost all the seats to the teals, so they need to win them back. 00:12:02:04 - 00:12:11:10 Benjamin Haslem and I'm sorry, knocking off a highly credentialed, talented woman to do that is just it's harebrained, to be honest. 00:12:11:11 - 00:12:38:22 Mark Forbes Yeah, well, the end result is it puts a bit of a dent in in Josh's future plans to, to to to make it, make it make a comeback which, which he might do. But it's not helped by this. And and certainly the libs more generally, the fact that they've toyed with it, there's been this publicity about it. There's had to be this push back in in favor of the the existing candidate again, doesn't play well for them. 00:12:38:22 - 00:12:47:08 Mark Forbes So it's just that it's, it's, it's a lose lose for everyone except the teals in the labour basically. Yeah. Totally agree. And talking about lose loses, mate. 00:12:47:09 - 00:13:05:12 Benjamin Haslem Well, before we get on to that mark, I really I really must you there's we do media training. Mark you know you know part time. We're not we're not, we're not we're not doing podcasts. But Charlotte Mortlock who is the founder of Hillman's network, which is a body that was set up to recruit women into the Liberal Party, had this brilliant line. 00:13:05:12 - 00:13:24:24 Benjamin Haslem I like to think she did it on the spur of the moment, but she basically said that women are not collateral damage for Josh Frydenberg's regrets, which I think must go down as one of the great quotes of of 2024. But I think to me that absolutely captures, I mean, collateral damage. It just it just captures the whole sort of feeling about about the whole episode. 00:13:24:24 - 00:13:27:23 Benjamin Haslem So. Yeah. So sorry. Mark. We were going to say something else. 00:13:27:23 - 00:13:38:20 Mark Forbes Yeah, we were about to segway,if, if, if, if the libs want to get serious about women body start acting like a grassland clovers do it. Well, 00:13:38:22 - 00:13:59:01 Benjamin Haslem Well, that's exactly right. That's it. But but that's anathema to a lot of the more conservative members of the Liberal Party who seem to think that, you know, people should get up on on merit alone. Well, a million, has got plenty of merit, I tell you now. She's very, very bright and very talented woman. and I think she got up there as much as anything on on talent. 00:13:59:04 - 00:14:38:22 Mark Forbes I've got to say, I've sat in both federal and state parliaments and particularly in state parliaments, both major sides of politics. Looking around those backbenchers, they are not what you call overflowing with merit. I don't I don't think that you can argue the system has worked so far. When you normally end up in state politics, we normally end up with a handful of decent people on both sides and getting, getting, divvying up the big jobs between them added that there are a bunch of, a bunch of timeseries in terms of in terms of unions hacks on the labour side and failed real estate spills on the libs. 00:14:38:22 - 00:14:43:01 Mark Forbes I mean, that's what we're dealing with. I think any change has got to be for the better. 00:14:43:03 - 00:15:00:10 Benjamin Haslem Yeah. I just want to quickly add the two of my government relations clients and all the politicians that I take them to say that's their Mark’s views are not necessarily shared by me. We're talking about talent. Should we talk about the UK election and not and not just the politicians, but who who is advising the British prime Minister? 00:15:00:12 - 00:15:01:22 Benjamin Haslem oh yeah. 00:15:01:24 - 00:15:12:19 Mark Forbes I just thought the optics of that announcement were, were unbelievable. And I think there's some commentators that haven't actually heard of umbrellas either in London. It does. It does rain a bit. 00:15:12:24 - 00:15:27:24 Benjamin Haslem For those of the who of you who've been, you know, living under a rock for want of a better term, you may have seen that, Rishi Sunak, who is the fifth British prime minister in I think well, when he came in two years ago, it was the fifth in eight years, decided to call an early election. 00:15:27:24 - 00:15:50:17 Benjamin Haslem So he's going to go on July the 4th this year. And so he came out the front of Downing Street outside the famous Black Door there to make the announcement. But obviously none of his advisers had bothered to, you know, check the weather radar so you can get them now on your phone or the weather forecast. And as soon as he started speaking, well, the heavens opened and the images were of his very nice, you know, German street suit completely soaked to the bone. 00:15:50:21 - 00:15:52:20 Mark Forbes I love the I think what was one of the headlines. 00:15:52:22 - 00:15:53:10 Benjamin Haslem As we say, the. 00:15:53:13 - 00:15:54:12 Mark Forbes ‘Drowning Street’. 00:15:54:12 - 00:16:16:09 Benjamin Haslem Drowning Street was another one, drowning out I love this from the Guardian's John Crace. this is what he wrote. Things can only get wetter. Soak the rich, soak the rich. apply on Tony Blair's 1997 campaign anthem, dreams. Things Can Only Get Better, which happened to be playing at the time that he came out and made the press call. 00:16:16:10 - 00:16:26:16 Mark Forbes I think they might have been a couple of life staffers, like the Beat Box. They would come to vote full volume semi successfully drowning, drowning him out through the through the course of. 00:16:26:16 - 00:16:42:16 Benjamin Haslem My favorite though was Yorkshire's The Northern Echo, which I'd actually never really heard of until I did a bit of research, but it comes from Yorkshire. for how long will he reign over us? so I like to use a wonderful British turn of phrase. It was a complete balls up. 00:16:42:18 - 00:17:05:22 Mark Forbes Well, and and he's coming from behind. I mean, he's called this election. It's an early election. He's called it in desperation because he thinks things aren't going to get better. and I've had so I think some, some. Yeah. A minor up. sort of reduction in inflation rates or something like that. But, but, but you need that to go right in, in one of those few advantages of equal. 00:17:05:24 - 00:17:21:05 Mark Forbes But one of the advantages of incumbency in politics is that capacity to control the timing, control the optics, you know, set the narrative at the start of the campaign. and this had to achieve the opposite of what he wanted. 00:17:21:07 - 00:17:43:23 Benjamin Haslem But the question is, does it matter? the start of the campaign, I mean, and we're ex journalists and I think we all as as journalists, we had the tendency to think whatever had just happened that day was the most important thing, you know, ever. I mean, that's an exaggeration, but, it goes back to the to Anthony Albanese gaffe at the start of the 2022 federal election. 00:17:43:23 - 00:18:00:03 Benjamin Haslem I don't know if you remember what he was up. He was up at a I think it was in Tasmania doing a doorstop, and he was almost bragging about how he knew what the price of bread was and the price of milk and how informed he was. And then, a former colleague of both you and, and mate, Andrew Connell and asked him, well, what's the unemployment rate? 00:18:00:05 - 00:18:06:21 Benjamin Haslem And he couldn't name it. And everyone thought, what a disaster. It's in the world. He's going to lose the election by the end of the election. Everyone forgot about it. 00:18:06:24 - 00:18:26:18 Mark Forbes It was one of the things I did. Five years hard time in Canberra. and it was in that Parliament House bubble. And lots of great people in that press gallery. They had lots and we had a lot of fun times. I remember one big outing to the Dapto dogs one day, led by Annabel Crabb, which was. 00:18:26:20 - 00:18:28:24 Benjamin Haslem It sounds like something that Annabel cryptically found. 00:18:29:01 - 00:18:53:19 Mark Forbes But but one of the things I found so depressing and frustrating was the obsession with, you know, the minor sort of scorecard of gaffes of the day. you know, it's as if they've got this wrong. That's the end of the world. Anyone really knows that it isn't with with this stuff, with Albo. I mean, because that, you know, you then had a whole, you know, team of reporters running around. 00:18:53:19 - 00:19:04:16 Mark Forbes Yeah, asking for figures about GDP and inflation. And I love Adam Bandt. The green leader's response when he was asked, I think he was asked about GDP and he said ‘Mate, Google it’ 00:19:04:18 - 00:19:10:06 Benjamin Haslem Yeah I think well I think probably close to the best, of of the entire campaign from the leader of the Greens. 00:19:10:06 - 00:19:22:04 Mark Forbes He quickly, quickly added that he did know what it was to you. But but but you know, it did the trick. And that is that to me, is one of the depressing things about political coverage. Is that obsession with the mind tied to. 00:19:22:05 - 00:19:42:24 Benjamin Haslem I agree, but then, of course, the politicians are desperate to fix things. So what did Sunak do to help people forget about the fact he was a drowned rat? on the day they announced the election? like something from his prime minister. he announced that if reelected, he would bring back national service. I mean, he said it'll help kids keep out of trouble as well as give them some structure. 00:19:42:24 - 00:19:48:00 Benjamin Haslem I mean, Sir Humphrey would be absolutely horrified it. But it's. So you couldn't make this stuff up, I would say. 00:19:48:00 - 00:20:11:05 Mark Forbes But it's from the conservative playbook, and I this is not the sort of thing I could quite easily imagine Peter Dutton saying, I'm at ease embracing nuclear power for God's sake. I think that that that it's it's it's you're trying to signal a particular section of, of the electorate, the Russian on conservatives to a degree, which they already have. 00:20:11:07 - 00:20:24:20 Mark Forbes but but I think he's looking more at that sort of rabid, rabid. Right, sort of blue collar Brexit sort of people who he's hoping this might appeal to and give him a chance of attracting, attracting. They've 00:20:24:22 - 00:20:31:05 Benjamin Haslem Well, it's obviously got Nigel Farage excited because he's decided it looks like to make a comeback as well. I. 00:20:31:05 - 00:20:38:24 Mark Forbes Mean, I won't mention that you just call him Neil then we've edited that out. But that's fine. We can go ahead. No, you can't do that. I just did. 00:20:38:24 - 00:20:53:19 Benjamin Haslem I've got to say, Mark, I hope my sons don't listen to this podcast, but, Yeah, my 18 and 21 year old, I do something. I think the National Service might actually fix them up a bit of what did, what did the Prime Minister say? Give them a bit of structure and keep them out of trouble. No they're they're good kids. 00:20:54:00 - 00:21:18:17 Benjamin Haslem They stay out of trouble. But maybe a bit of structure wouldn't hurt. but, I mean, the reaction was, was pretty damning. The former head of the Royal Navy, Admiral Lord West, labeled it harebrained and warned it would deplete Britain's defense capabilities. Obviously a vote of confidence in British youth there. he said it would harm morale. And the other question was, well, does the Army or the defense forces in the UK actually have the capacity to train 30,000 troops? 00:21:18:19 - 00:21:43:07 Benjamin Haslem Probably not. But I thought the best and most bizarre criticism actually came from the labour side of politics, where they claimed that national had national service existed in the 1960s, it probably would have prevented the Beatles and the Stones from ever forming because they would have been spending all this time doing National service. Jonathan Ashworth, Labour's shadow paymaster general, whatever that is, said, we now discover National Service would have destroyed both the Beatles and the stones as well. 00:21:43:07 - 00:22:04:11 Benjamin Haslem Even Yoko Ono could manage that. I mean, UK politics is more jump shock, isn't it? yeah, but it just kept getting worse as well. for Nick, first there was National Service, then he trots off to Wales and apparently he says, are you guys excited about the European Football Championships? Well, Wales had actually failed to qualify, for the for the championships. 00:22:04:11 - 00:22:14:16 Benjamin Haslem And then he heads off to Belfast to visit the Titanic Museum. So, why would you go and visit the Titanic Museum when you're the prime Minister? You mean the optics are like. Yeah, we're sinking here. 00:22:14:16 - 00:22:48:03 Mark Forbes You've got to wonder about his support team. I mean, even in in Australian politics, something on the on the election trail. And you have teams of people going at skating, like at events. Yeah. And making sure that any embattled leader is not in a position to be photographed with an exit sign above his head or someone. It just it's it's it's bizarre, but, I mean, mind you, the lack of attention, and, incompetency amongst political staff is, has, has delivered some beautiful moments in elections. 00:22:48:03 - 00:23:13:10 Mark Forbes over the years I still my favorite motion my site my my favorite picture at out of out of the out of the Trump. campaign last time round was, when Rudy Giuliani, set up a press conference in the, in in what he thought was a fall court of the Four Seasons, which it turned out to be Four Seasons Landscaping, which was, I think, right next to 00:23:13:12 - 00:23:15:13 Mark Forbes a major sex shop. 00:23:15:15 - 00:23:20:06 Benjamin Haslem And there was that the same one where he had the hair dye running down his face as well. Was it was that the secret. 00:23:20:06 - 00:23:21:14 Mark Forbes Prison on this thing? Yeah. 00:23:21:16 - 00:23:40:00 Benjamin Haslem I think it's all about it's all comes back to perception, doesn't it? There's also the famous one with Paul Keating in front of the I think the, the, the logo, for want of a better word, the slogan for labour and might have been 93 or 96 was leadership. And is that famous photograph of Paul Keating standing in front of leadership, but his head's blocking out the just his leadership. 00:23:40:05 - 00:23:59:13 Benjamin Haslem So there's so many there are so many traps and potholes that, you know, can potentially, upset you. But look, I think it comes down to perception. It also comes down to everything seems the worst thing ever at the time. But election campaigns along and slip ups happen. And really, don't dawn at each other. It would be. 00:23:59:16 - 00:24:24:16 Mark Forbes Yeah, well I thought, well, you know, I think we can poke a bit of fun wherever, wherever we can, although. And listen, I'll watch the UK election. Election with interest. But I do get the feeling that you're watching the warm up act and you're watching the warm up act. And where things are going to get really entertaining is, is is when the Donald Mike sees what's looking like, an inevitable run towards regaining the American presidency. 00:24:24:20 - 00:24:36:04 Benjamin Haslem And I suppose it's good for you to Mark. I mean, you've got now the the UK election, you've got a month to keep yourself entertained after having watched Arsenal again fail to win, the Premier League title. So at least you'll have something in the UK to keep an eye on for the next month. 00:24:36:04 - 00:24:43:11 Mark Forbes Finished above your mobs mate. And I'll take I'll, I'll take second on merit and just wait for it. Just wait for next season. I think the last. 00:24:43:11 - 00:24:47:14 Benjamin Haslem Match in England was the FA Cup, which Manchester United won, so I think we'll take that as well. 00:24:47:16 - 00:24:50:04 Mark Forbes You're still sacking your manager? I don't know, actually. 00:24:50:08 - 00:24:53:09 Benjamin Haslem It's a little confusing now that there's another that there's another whole podcast right there. 00:24:53:10 - 00:25:08:05 Mark Forbes But anyway, before we we, we, we managed to bore listeners with our sporting anecdotes. I think we should say that's all we've got for you today, but we'll see you next time up the creek. 00:25:08:07 - 00:25:09:02 Mark Forbes