00:00:00:00 - 00:00:12:23 Unknown Oh, Oh. 00:00:13:00 - 00:00:22:16 Speaker 2 hi. Welcome to Up the Creek, where we look at how institutions and individuals found themselves up a proverbial and dissect their efforts to reach common waters. I'm Ben Haslam. 00:00:22:16 - 00:00:35:00 Speaker 3 And I'm Mark Forbes. Today, we turn our reputation to Canberra. And opposition leader Peter Dutton's quest to make Australia go nuclear. Button is. That is crazy brave is all the commentators are saying. 00:00:35:01 - 00:00:53:00 Speaker 2 I've got to say it takes us back to, before the 1993 election, the the unelectable election where Doctor John Hewson and the coalition decided to release fight Back and promised a GST. The all rules are you don't go to an election from opposition promising a new tax effect. You don't go to election from anywhere promising a new tax. 00:00:53:02 - 00:01:12:21 Speaker 2 And he lost the election. You'd have to say to yourself oppositions generally don't win elections, governments lose them and you go for a small target. At the moment, the labor government is struggling with cost of living pressures and, high, high inflation. It's obviously related to that as well. People are feeling very insecure. Economic growth is quite low. 00:01:12:23 - 00:01:22:04 Speaker 2 So it's there for the coalition to win. And yet they've decided to go with a very radical policy around nuclear power. 00:01:22:06 - 00:01:53:17 Speaker 3 And you'd think labor would welcome the chance to have debate around, the energy transition, renewables, combating climate change, which they'd figured they'd have a fair degree of public support around. And it's weird. I think he's using this as something, at least as a societal wedge, or to combat labor in its support for a new renewables and a way for he and the various sort of tacit climate deniers in, in his, in his party skeptics. 00:01:53:17 - 00:01:58:03 Speaker 2 Mark. Come on that they like to tell you they're not deniers, they're skeptics. 00:01:58:05 - 00:02:20:14 Speaker 3 But it gives them a chance to push back against the renewable rollout, to say, hey, there's another answer here. And it's nuclear. And and libraries so ideologically opposed to nuclear. They're not looking at that the reality and might be rolling this out. So he sees he sees a win for it but got it. The selling of it has been a total sham. 00:02:20:14 - 00:02:40:06 Speaker 3 Also I reckon that I mean, we finally saw some data on the policy, but when it did come out, he was talking about, you know, five nuclear reactors in key sites, mainly all power station big reactors. When he was talking about this a month ago, it was small modular nuclear reactors. We know tiny little really exist. 00:02:40:06 - 00:02:57:09 Speaker 2 I think there's one that's kind of working somewhere. But, look, I think he's tapping into a number of things here. He's tapping into people's anger and concern about the cost of power and electricity. I think he's tapping into the fact that it particularly in rural and regional Australia, people are very worried about the 10,000km of transmission lines. 00:02:57:09 - 00:03:17:16 Speaker 2 They don't like wind farms everywhere spoiling their views. They don't want to see prime agricultural land being taken up with solar farms. So I think he's tapping into that as well. And so he's trying to argue that we want to get rid of CO2. Nuclear power produces pretty much zero CO2. It's proven technology throughout the world. But he's also trying to claim that it's cheaper. 00:03:17:16 - 00:03:30:03 Speaker 2 And I think he's trying to. mythologize. The fact that renewables are expensive, when in fact all the excess will tell you. I mean, there's a capital cost of building the power lines, but once it's actually up and running and generating, it's incredibly cheap. It's the cheapest form of power. 00:03:30:03 - 00:03:57:13 Speaker 3 Oh, there's no question, even in considering all those other costs, that that nuclear power is substantially more expensive. I think, you know, 4 or 5 times, then the cost of, of renewable generation. So it seems it seems you'll understand why he's trying to link these to cost of living and the need to drive energy prices down, but it's simply doesn't add up. 00:03:57:14 - 00:04:19:12 Speaker 3 And then you add in the capital cost of the beans to build these things. It can only actually increase prices, not the opposite. So you would you would think that if that debate really gets proper airtime, that that sinks in. But I mean, the other element too is, is, is there is, an echo of the climate skeptic or denial debate, the. 00:04:19:12 - 00:04:21:05 Speaker 2 Tony Abbott crap. Yeah. 00:04:21:10 - 00:04:40:10 Speaker 3 Which basically don't believe the scientists. You know, this is some conspiracy in. And we had, we had a very big substantive CSIRO report that evaluated all of these and, and basically buttons going, oh, don't look at that. No, this is this, this artist's. 00:04:40:10 - 00:05:04:06 Speaker 2 Yeah. That's right. I think also that there's a general, a general naivete, ignorance at worst about how renewable power works. That's very easy to say. When the sun don't shine and the wind don't blow, how are we going to turn the lights on? And, you know, and keep things running? What I think the government needs to do is get out there and explain that, you know, you do have things called pumped hydro, which allows, you know, they use renewables to pump water up a hill. 00:05:04:06 - 00:05:17:15 Speaker 2 And then when the wind doesn't blow and the sun don't shine, it runs down the hill and it actually produces power. There's also batteries. I mean, people eventually will have a battery on the side of the house in exactly the same way that once we didn't have toilets in our homes that are out the back somewhere, and now we do. 00:05:17:15 - 00:05:29:05 Speaker 2 So now the government needs to explain how renewables actually can produce reliable, consistent electricity without the need to spend billions and billions of dollars on nuclear power plants. 00:05:29:05 - 00:05:50:17 Speaker 3 And if you've got a Navy in your garage, that that's that's a battery and that's going to bedroom, that's going to play a major part in the the system, I mean, the technical term within that sector is I talk about the need for for firming the power to be able to come online. when the wind is in plants and it's enchanting looking at night. 00:05:50:19 - 00:06:03:07 Speaker 3 but and that's why they talking about gas. Yes. But gas, you dial up and down, you can't, you can't you can't switch a nuclear reactor on and off. I think they tend to explode. 00:06:03:09 - 00:06:29:02 Speaker 2 You know, I think the arguing with nuclear is that you wouldn't use it for firming it, use it as baseload. So you do you say look, where was it? I need at least x per cent of power there in case the wind doesn't blow, etc.. And so you have it running there. But the other problem also is that in Australia we have legislation ironically brought in by the Howard government, which effectively bans nuclear power as a as a source of Generation Australia that will require legislative change, which will require passage through the Senate. 00:06:29:02 - 00:06:33:00 Speaker 3 Now constitutionally the Greens fighting funding for a new correct. 00:06:33:02 - 00:06:57:13 Speaker 2 No. That's why the only party that's had, or government that's had control of the Senate in, in my in my lifetime, I think, or at least in my, in my addled memory was John Howard from 2004 to 2007. And that did not end well. so and also then apparently, you know, being a former High Court correspondent, I claim to know and understand section 51 of the Constitution, which is the what powers the Commonwealth have to make the states do things. 00:06:57:15 - 00:07:06:18 Speaker 2 My understanding is that the states can also stand in the way, and the Commonwealth can't override any attempts by them to block nuclear power. Now, there's a labor government in every state now except Tassie. 00:07:06:21 - 00:07:39:08 Speaker 3 But yeah, this is a practicality. They won't get it up, but it's also the politics of it. I, I thought it was interesting. I saw, one of our leading pollsters talking about pulling Iran, nuclear, nuclear power and being amazed at every focus group brought up The Simpsons and and basically safety Simpsons three eyed fish. A hint I love to say that the ALP obviously had some insights into this and got right out there with all these memes of three eyed fish and three eyed koalas. 00:07:39:08 - 00:07:54:06 Speaker 2 That's right. You had the three eyed koalas. Yeah. So. But also what it was I'd like to ask you about was that wise? I my first reaction to when I saw that was I thought, and this is before I knew about the polls, to say everyone kept talking about The Simpsons. I thought it looked a little bit a little bit juvenile. 00:07:54:06 - 00:07:59:00 Speaker 2 I thought, let them open a little bit to to almost trivializing the issue. Well, that position jumped on it. 00:07:59:01 - 00:08:26:10 Speaker 3 Yeah. The opposition's attack. Let's have an adult debate and so on. But the reality is that that humor is an incredibly effective weapon in in marketing and in politics. And it just goes to show as well that the major parties here to, alive, to the fact that the social media and memes, can be a really effective campaigning technique, particularly to get to, to, to young to younger voters. 00:08:26:10 - 00:08:41:14 Speaker 3 I think all's fair in all's fair in these. I think that they're being cheeky. Dutton's going out and saying things that he knows are is untrue. I mean, I think it's I think the whole thing's a bit of a Trojan horse, really. It's it's, a mechanism. 00:08:41:14 - 00:08:42:22 Speaker 2 Life of karma. Yeah. 00:08:42:24 - 00:09:08:12 Speaker 3 Yeah. Extend the life a a fossil fuel, delay the renewable, rollout. But the danger is then, that we're not putting the energy and the money in the money in the effort into by more renewable generation, upgrading the grid so it can cope with all these, renewable generation. And we don't do that, and we we we fall behind as a nation. 00:09:08:15 - 00:09:30:15 Speaker 2 Well, I think the risk here is that it creates a flood of capital out of Australia. I mean, there are lots of investors around the world who are looking to invest in renewable energy. I mean, mainly because often it's underwritten or subsidized by government. There is a reasonably good guaranteed return. Why would you come to Australia when they're apparently not going to invest all this money in nuclear power? 00:09:30:15 - 00:09:44:03 Speaker 2 You'd go you'd go somewhere else. So the upshot could be that nuclear power is eventually created in Australia in 20 years time, but we're so far behind renewables that we don't meet any targets, and we're viewed by the rest of the world as laggards. 00:09:44:05 - 00:09:49:00 Speaker 3 I think. I think Dutton's back the wrong three eyed haughty about. I think I do. 00:09:49:02 - 00:09:58:02 Speaker 2 Well, time will tell. Okay. Now, how do we segway to Julian Assange from that? I mean, he was radioactive, wasn't he? In some respects, well. 00:09:58:02 - 00:10:19:07 Speaker 3 It's been the other thing, sort of entrenching, entrenching camber in the nation to a degree. That whole media circus that we saw around, around, Wikileaks founder Julian Assange, flight to freedom. I mean, it was it was, I'm not sure what it was, but touch O.J. Simpson car chase. Yeah. 00:10:19:09 - 00:10:35:24 Speaker 2 Taylor Swift, private jet, I think. I don't I don't think Flightradar24 said so many people, monitoring a private jet since status, flight from, take it back to Las Vegas to see her boy play in the Super Bowl. In fact, I'm being a, as you know, I think you actually said it the other day, Mark, I'm an aviation nerd. 00:10:36:01 - 00:10:55:05 Speaker 2 And I actually did look at flight radar. And Julian's flight was the most tracked flight on the flight, right at 24, around the time that he was landing in a place we'd never heard of. Taipan, which I'd never even heard of or even knew existed. And now I do know this is where he was. Basically, he pleaded guilty to conspiracy to, to engage in espionage. 00:10:55:05 - 00:11:09:08 Speaker 2 I think, or something similar. And then he was a free man. But the question is, and we're, you know, we're ex journos, is he is he is he a hero or a villain? Is he a journalist or a whistleblower or kind of all of those all of the above? 00:11:09:10 - 00:11:27:17 Speaker 3 Well, I think he's a little bit of both. I mean, let's, let's let's come back to it. I do I must declare, I do have a little bit of a personal insight into this, in that in my time at the Sunday age of the age, we did, we did have some contact, with, with Julian. 00:11:27:17 - 00:11:58:02 Speaker 3 And I have to credit one of the more interesting characters around Canberra in Foreign Affairs, Phil Dowling as, as as being the instigator of that. He'd had some, contact with, Assange and, and, and Wikileaks and basically they this was back in 2010, and it was messy when they started to like the stuff that some very damaging, material from military reports and also from US diplomatic cables. 00:11:58:02 - 00:12:25:09 Speaker 3 It showed the US involved in all sorts of nefarious of activities and propping up dictators and, and so on as they want to do over the decades. so a lot of media wanted access to and basically every night it made media outlet. and eventually, Assange went into effectively, a partnership with five major, major publications, including New York Times, Le Monde. 00:12:25:11 - 00:12:26:05 Speaker 2 The Guardian, The. 00:12:26:05 - 00:12:27:14 Speaker 3 Guardian, the Guardian and our. 00:12:27:17 - 00:12:33:01 Speaker 2 Little Darlings pieces. I mean, really, it was it was every morning you get up and. And what's the latest? Install it. 00:12:33:03 - 00:13:04:04 Speaker 3 And we basically negotiated a sore deal, pretty much at that at the same time where we got some access to the materials that were particular relevant to Australia, but not necessarily some of those global outlets. And, I think, you know, primarily the, you know, the, the there was there was some very personal and critical US cables from Canberra talking about Kevin Rudd being, a demanding control freak, and so on, which those of us with. 00:13:04:06 - 00:13:09:07 Speaker 2 The defense of truth. if you're listening, Mr. Rudd, I you know, that's my opinion. 00:13:09:09 - 00:13:34:11 Speaker 3 But it was it was a bizarre exercise because Philip had to, he had to, fly at to to to Brisbane with instructions to go to Heathrow Airport, make sure he wasn't followed and go to a railway station, go to the railway station, use the public phone. They this is local stuff. It's basically, get smart. 00:13:34:11 - 00:14:08:19 Speaker 3 But and make a phone call to a number, with issues that he'd been provided on, on a secure channel. and I simply added the word of another train station in rural England that he had to jump on a train and go to, and then they'd found some shadowy character with, you know, all sort of, masked up on the platform, who, you know, who took him to an old sort of English, sort of stately manor that, its owner had made available for the, for the Wikileaks headquarters and then basically started to, to trawl through, trawl through all this material. 00:14:08:19 - 00:14:19:02 Speaker 3 But it was it was a truly bizarre episode. But I think that what became clear through these and subsequent things is that. 00:14:19:04 - 00:14:29:20 Speaker 3 There was some amazing work that was done, and I actually think it was an immense public good that that material got out. Like, people should know the bad deeds. Governments often do in doing their names. 00:14:29:20 - 00:14:31:24 Speaker 2 Right, like should be shown in the dark corners. 00:14:32:01 - 00:15:05:02 Speaker 3 But but also that with Assange it was often about Assange and he had left and continued to leave a trail of disillusioned, people and supporters who felt that, at times he'd done their own thing. There was big controversy over his decision when the the initial reports went out, big controversy over his decision to basically throw open the floodgates and release every single of the two 200,000 or so documents. 00:15:05:04 - 00:15:34:05 Speaker 3 there was some arguments about why they needed to do that and things being compromised. But but really, he had aligned with those New York Times, Guardian and people like us to have that journalistic credibility, basically to to have that process for fact checking, redacting names and protecting people. And that's been the big criticism. And that the justification for, his pursuit and charging him is he has endangered the safety of all these civilian spies, diplomats. 00:15:34:07 - 00:15:42:12 Speaker 2 You now that there is absolutely no evidence of anyone being harmed by any of these materials being leaked. 00:15:42:12 - 00:16:01:06 Speaker 3 Well, more than that, the US established a taskforce to investigate and report it back to say that they could find no specific examples of anyone who had lost their life or as a result of the Wikileaks publications. let me back to the question. I suppose if I. 00:16:01:06 - 00:16:05:10 Speaker 2 Don't hear a journalist whistleblower. So the first one first is here. He's your hero. 00:16:05:12 - 00:16:26:20 Speaker 3 Well, I think in some ways he I would say a flawed hero. but but but a hero nevertheless, despite the fact we had former ISI chief Dennis Richardson know, you know, speaking out over the, the sort of the royal welcome from the Prime minister and others for Assange saying this guy's a criminal, he's a traitor. That's an issue. 00:16:26:20 - 00:16:49:13 Speaker 3 You should you shouldn't do it. But but is he a journalist? Well, a bit I mean, he definitely accessed and got access to material that journalists really wanted and craved a journalistic value to part in their presentation and publication. But I'd say that he didn't he didn't actually write the stories. 00:16:49:16 - 00:16:52:24 Speaker 2 I think he's I think he's a hybrid journalist. That's quite good whistleblowers. 00:16:53:00 - 00:17:19:02 Speaker 3 Yeah. Well, well, that's the thing I think. Yeah, he's a part journalist, but he's definitely a whistleblower. And he worked obviously with with Bradley now Chelsea manning, the the, the the army officer, I like the material to him. but journalist and or whistleblower, either way, I think he deserves protection and should not have been pursued. It should never have been jailed. 00:17:19:02 - 00:17:22:18 Speaker 3 And for him to been incarcerated for so long is, I think, an indictment. 00:17:22:20 - 00:17:44:13 Speaker 2 Yeah. No, I agree with you on that. Okay. So from one guy who was never short of a word to one fellow who was short of words the other day or other night in the US, we talk, of course, about the current US president, Joe Biden. And, you kind of missed what was one of the one of the worst political performances in many, many years. 00:17:44:13 - 00:17:59:14 Speaker 3 It was painful. I mean, obviously there's 120, 32nd grade that that where he just totally lost the plot. but that is hugely huge, damaging the modern day Nige that that will be maimed. yeah. The 00:17:59:16 - 00:18:07:08 Speaker 2 Other line from Trump. I didn't quite understand what he meant by that last sentence. And I don't think he did either, was a great grab. 00:18:07:10 - 00:18:29:16 Speaker 3 But it it felt like you were watching Weekend at Bernie's goes to Washington. I mean, it really it it really did. And he has, you know, made a little bit of a comeback since at a, at another rally with the aid of a teleprompter coming out swinging. But, you would have to think that the damage it does to his candidacy for, you know, the next election is potentially fatal. 00:18:29:16 - 00:18:47:13 Speaker 2 I think it probably is. I think one of the most damning things that not everybody saw this was off the debate finish was his wife, Jill Biden, helping him get off what was possibly basically two step stage. And she had to sort of help him gingerly walk down. I mean, this was, you know, an old man in decline. 00:18:47:13 - 00:19:12:08 Speaker 2 And, I mean, a point I made to be before we start the podcast, Mike is a journalist. Like most people, they tend to think what's just happened is the most important thing, you know, because it's happened at the moment. And then once time passes, even a few days, it doesn't seem as bad. and that's probably the case here, but but everyone will now have in the back of their minds, he has to keep performing at a high level, particularly as we're close to Election Day. 00:19:12:08 - 00:19:27:05 Speaker 2 I think it's the 4th or 5th of November. He's going to have to be doing that kind of thing two, three, four times a day, every day. And you say he can't do it. He just can't do it. He might have had an off day, but we've seen already previously that he's saying, look quite gingerly. He was state of the Union. 00:19:27:05 - 00:19:37:06 Speaker 2 He was fine. But we were he had a teleprompter then as well. I just think he can't think on his feet. And the questions, how can he be the leader of the free world for four years, if that's why he's here for. 00:19:37:06 - 00:19:53:03 Speaker 3 Four more years. But it means that any mistake he makes will be magnified in grading. But that 20 30s from that debate is not going to go away if you have a Republican use it these days. Is your TV? Yeah, it's absolutely. 00:19:53:03 - 00:20:13:05 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. and then just to just today it's come out that there's a, I think was a CNN poll saying that people believe that Kamala Harris is more it would be more likely to to, to defeat Donald Trump. Now Kamala Harris is she's the vice president. She's not popular. She's she's, you know, considered to be very left in the Democratic Party. 00:20:13:05 - 00:20:17:19 Speaker 2 She's polarizing. If people think that I think that that says a lot about where Biden stands. 00:20:17:19 - 00:20:32:05 Speaker 3 Well, it yeah, I mean, it's interesting, too, that it sounds like a couple of names being, being talked about is possible. Yeah. Ringing, ringing replacements. which is what Gretchen, Gretchen, Gretchen Whitmer, I think she's the. 00:20:32:07 - 00:20:33:10 Speaker 2 Michigan Michigan. 00:20:33:15 - 00:20:34:01 Speaker 3 Governor. 00:20:34:02 - 00:20:34:14 Speaker 2 Swing state. 00:20:34:18 - 00:20:51:21 Speaker 3 But both both female. So another chance for for the states to actually elect a woman, a woman president for the first time. But what do you think about the selling of of of of of changing horses like that just before an election? Do you think that. I'm not sure if that's going to work? 00:20:51:24 - 00:21:11:19 Speaker 2 Well, the question is, how many people are out there who desperately don't want Trump to be elected? Anyone but Trump. And if you put somebody up who's half decent, they they may well come out and vote for that person. The problem for the with Biden is I think, well, anyone but Trump. But if the alternative is Biden, they may they may not vote at all. 00:21:11:24 - 00:21:19:00 Speaker 2 And that's that's the danger. The Trump supporters will vote because they're motivated. I mean, you see them, they're very passionate. It's one word. 00:21:19:02 - 00:21:39:04 Speaker 3 and I meant that. And the other thing is he's a little he's a little bit out there, a little bit of conspiracy theorist. But I mean, there might be another chance for another Kennedy in the white House. It. Well, RFK, RFK Jr. I think he's pulling somehow at 17, 18% support. That's not insubstantial. 00:21:39:04 - 00:21:59:07 Speaker 2 You know, the old expression, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Well, might that apple, it didn't just fall in the same orchard. It fell in the next state. I mean, he's he's farther, you know, Robert J. Kennedy, attorney general and would have been probably president, United States hit like his brother was assassinated. He's one of the great political leaders of the last 100 years. 00:21:59:09 - 00:22:08:23 Speaker 2 And I'm sorry, but this is a son that has all sorts of wild conspiracy theories about vaccines. but then again, Trump. 00:22:09:00 - 00:22:27:09 Speaker 3 If it might, if it's a choice split between between, you know, Weekend at Della Go and Weekend at Bernie's, on the other hand, she's you never know. I'm not I would be interested to see if he if I don't if I don't, if I don't switch Biden that I would be interesting to switch. 00:22:27:09 - 00:22:48:01 Speaker 2 But now it's up to him. I mean and he's not going anywhere. That's that's the problem. I mean, the, the common people keep making is that how is how are these two people, Joe Biden, who is a political hero of mine. But, but he's, you know, ten years ago, he would have been magnificent. President and Trump, how did the America come to having these two people as he as the choice to be their president? 00:22:48:01 - 00:23:01:06 Speaker 2 It's just I mean, you look back at some of the, you know, really good presidents doesn't matter what your politics are. I mean, Reagan was a good president, Clinton was a good president, JFK was a good president. And yet, I mean, these two. 00:23:01:08 - 00:23:29:04 Speaker 3 And, and, it it it is, is the pressing, prospect for the free world, the choice between a clown and a cadaver. But we shall see. But on that, I think that's all we have time for today, Ben. So we'll see you next time up to break. 00:23:29:06 - 00:23:32:00 Unknown Beep beep beep.