00:00:00:00 - 00:00:31:01 Unknown Oh, Oh. hi. Welcome to Up the Creek, where we look at how institutions and individuals found themselves up the proverbial. And I said their efforts to reach calmer waters. I'm Ben Haslam, and I'm Mark Forbes as Jenna. As we prompted resignations and calls royal commissions. As consultants, we protect reputation when crisis comes now. 00:00:31:03 - 00:00:54:24 Unknown First, today we're going to turn our reputation eye towards the media landscape, our old stamping ground. Ben. Yes, as we're watching media outlets indulge in one of their favorite sports of tearing each other down. the latest episode we saw was Four Corners, lining up with the culture of abuse and harassment as I portrayed it at channel seven. 00:00:55:01 - 00:01:15:22 Unknown what were your thoughts on it, Mike? Did I hear hit the Mark? Don't speak. I think it was called. That's one. Look, look, I think getting current seven employees on camera was remarkable and goes, I think to the to the level of anger at the actual company itself. overall look, it added grist to the mill about channel seven, about the blokey culture, about the boys club. 00:01:15:24 - 00:01:44:20 Unknown And you can watch, I think, thinking it's a pretty horrible place to work. I think, you know, what I did to a party was the horrible treatment of the producer in the wheelchair and what happened to him. I just think that added to the general damage to their reputation. Yeah. For those for those who haven't seen it, there was a range of employees, mainly female, speaking out about their treatment in a very critical way, highlighting some of the newsroom leaders, around the country, but particularly Perth. 00:01:44:22 - 00:02:08:17 Unknown but there also was a producer who was working the night shifts in a wheelchair, and was, you know, forced to, to, wheel his way home through the dark and unsafe streets and ended up getting quite seriously injured. He fell out of his chair, injured himself. And then when he put in a claim for worker's compensation, he says that channel seven denied those ever any formal agreement for him to work those hours, and therefore was declined. 00:02:08:23 - 00:02:38:00 Unknown Look, I think one element that was missing was Amber Harrison, you know, the former, lover of the former Seven West media chief, Tim Warner. She was in all the promos, but then she was dropped mysteriously from the final cut. I think there was some legal threats, and my suspicion would be as Four Corners kept complaining during their story that many people couldn't speak because they hadn't made a settlement with channel seven and saw a non-disclosure agreement, which is a little ironic that media outlets always want people to speak out. 00:02:38:00 - 00:02:55:18 Unknown Is forcing them, to to to shut up. But I think that the lawyers got into be intervened. And I think that pulled at what would have been a core element of his story. Interesting was seven response to it, which is with the old faithful. This is old news. All been dealt with. Nothing to see here. Move right along. 00:02:55:20 - 00:03:26:04 Unknown It's difficult because I mean obviously that the the atmosphere is change is much higher expectations about behavior, that really blokey culture that dominated, well many workplaces but also TV newsrooms has, hasn't stood the time particularly well. The difficulty with some of these methods is, is, is where, where do they write in terms of, in terms of series, this is just this bad bullying behavior or is this really serious criminal stuff? 00:03:26:07 - 00:03:55:02 Unknown And certainly there was I just don't think it was that killer Bligh and I think maybe because I didn't have, Amber, who had been having an affair with the chief, the chief executive. It certainly said something about an organization's culture that needed to change. As someone who used to work for Four Corners. Yeah. Was it up there in terms of the most impactful and important topics at any? 00:03:55:02 - 00:04:15:01 Unknown Yeah. No. A lot of you say flagship does not. And it's a little strange that they that they turned on, they turned on another media outlet. But I think the revelations about Bruce Lehmann that came out in the recent defamation trial were a lot more dramatic. You know, he had, euphemistically speaking, misuses, let's talk about sex workers. 00:04:15:01 - 00:04:37:19 Unknown Okay. Yeah. Coke, not the soft drink, the stuff people stick up their noses and the $400 steaks. but but but mud doesn't seem to have stuck. But then again, the timing of four comes straight after the Olympics. Channel nine. I think most people agree, did a pretty good job in Paris. No one's basking in the glory of the Olympics, probably gaining a bit of a ratings bump. 00:04:37:19 - 00:05:09:10 Unknown And then this comes up on on four corners. I mean, the time is pretty bad for seven. Yeah. You do have to wonder, though, how much impact they actually have whether people either don't care, or maybe they expect their high paid journos to be behaving badly. I mean, it was interesting to me. There's been a number of senior seven people of late following the, the Lohmann case, which was a disaster for them, as we've discussed, previous SLI, but it doesn't feel like there's been a dramatic impact on seven. 00:05:09:10 - 00:05:27:17 Unknown Although they're right. It's so good. It's too early, though, isn't it? I mean, think about it. If you're someone who used to watch channel 7:06 p.m. news, you've been watching the Olympics, you might have got a bit of a taste of the channel nine news you get get on this last Monday night, gone and you think, I said, do I want to go back to seven? 00:05:27:19 - 00:06:00:09 Unknown look, probably not. And the audience, also Four Corners audience, is it not? I mean, maybe I'm stereotyping, really. I am the people who watch who watched the 6 p.m. news on masse. Do they watch Four Corners or is it a different audience? Simple answer mate. They don't, they don't. And and I think that, what we're we seven though it made a lot of positive noises about changing culture and change some people over what's been Seven's biggest initiative, since the lemon renovations. 00:06:00:11 - 00:06:41:07 Unknown Introducing horoscopes into the nightly news. we're not talking about the apex of journalism here. Apologies to to, er, former colleagues, but I actually hate to admit it, but I work for channel seven for money. I worked at, a To Die tonight and did see some examples of pretty poor treatment of people. But it does bring, to, to my memory, a wonderful phrase from that old gonzo, American journalist Henry Thompson, who described the commercial TV as a shallow, plastic lined money pit along which pimps and whores run free, and good men die like dogs. 00:06:41:07 - 00:07:08:06 Unknown But you touched on it before, Mark, in an even more competitive market for TV, we're increasingly saying not just in TV, but across social media. We're seeing media outlets writing about each other with great gusto and being highly critical of each other. Yeah. And and I would say some, particularly some of your old colleagues at the Australian aren't being too, respectful of the facts when it comes to a chance to, to kick a competitor, a competitor when they down. 00:07:08:06 - 00:07:27:24 Unknown I mean, we're seeing this with defamation cases as well too, where they used to be a sort of a, you know, an agreement that you don't go too hard on the evidence against your competitors in, in, defamation cases or the outcome of it's bad, thinking. Well, but for the grace of God, they go, they go us. 00:07:27:24 - 00:07:54:19 Unknown And we don't want to encourage people to sue. We don't want to, to to, you know, blacken the name of, of the tribe, but it's, it's there's now almost cheese courts. I mean, we saw that in, in the lumen case where you effectively had, seven and and, and used to it to, to Graham in one corner and nine and ten, in the, in, in the other. 00:07:54:20 - 00:08:21:11 Unknown Because, you know, seven had had effectively put its money on getting the interview with lumen, the alleged rapist. Well, according to, I, a civil court, an actual rapist, and, whereas Tim was defending its behavior in screening the allegations by Brittany Higgins. on on on the project. Similar similar with that Ben Roberts-Smith case you mentioned. 00:08:21:11 - 00:08:46:02 Unknown Yeah. I mean, you mentioned The Australian and the Australian doesn't hide its disdain for the ABC, but historically speaking, the reason why Murdoch and News went off the ABC was because for, for, for decades and decades, the ABC did TV and radio. Then along comes the internet and suddenly, well, the ABC is, you know, effectively competing in print with News Corp. 00:08:46:06 - 00:09:13:09 Unknown And so that's why Murdoch has gone off to the ABC, doesn't seem to have had much effect. But, and that's, I think, in an ever shrinking media market where increasing pressures and creating financial pressures, I think we just see a lot of the media going, going after each other, because in almost in the in the death throes of this summer, they fighting over a shrinking pie, that their advertising pie has, has diffused a lot has gone on to. 00:09:13:10 - 00:09:33:03 Unknown Yeah other services, streaming services, digital and so on. And it's not the cash cow that, that, that it used to be. I think we saw some. Well, I was going to say, perfect timing is perfect timing to go with the end of the Olympics on nine four cornerstone channels on the channel seven culture, seven West Media released its results. 00:09:33:03 - 00:09:54:11 Unknown Revenue was down 5%. Net profit after tax was down 69%, and the free to air TV industry as a whole is seeing its revenue in absolute freefall. And according to Media Week, revenue was down 8.1% in the year to 30th June. So it's that's you know, and the aluminum almost isn't the only bright spot for commercial TV has been the bounce. 00:09:54:11 - 00:10:20:11 Unknown It that nine's got from the Olympics and I think they've already, raked in, 160 million in, in increase revenues around the Olympics coverage and basking in that gold and Aussie Aussie glow. hopefully that might stave off some more cuts at nine for a wall. given that they've just decimated the, the, the the the my agent and Sydney Morning Herald, newsrooms. 00:10:20:11 - 00:10:54:10 Unknown But listen, I think the trajectory for for three to air TV is, is, only got one way to go and that's down, I agree. Now, look, talking about you mentioned before the high quality of journalism that channel seven has produced over the years. Let's switch our gaze to radio. And Kyle and Jackie. Oh, oh, those the they brag, didn't they, when they, they, came into the Melbourne market just a few months ago that they would be take it by storm and be, be be number one. 00:10:54:12 - 00:11:25:05 Unknown it's it's typical in my experience of, of Sydney based media, one thinking how good they are and two, just underestimating how parochial Melbourne audiences are. Remember back in the the 90s, I think it was channel seven decided to save some cost by streaming the weekend news out of Sydney. and they their ratings actually fell to zero within it within a week and Asterix on the TV rating charts and so that had to to jump around. 00:11:25:05 - 00:11:46:03 Unknown But media executives, are not one to learn from, learn from their mistakes. And I just, I'd say, well, it was never going to work. I knew straight away. Look, I, you know, I grew up in Canberra, which I think gives me the right to pass judgment on every other part of Australia because every other part of Australia passes judgment on Canberra. 00:11:46:05 - 00:12:08:07 Unknown I moved to Melbourne from Sydney and you tell people you're from Sydney and it was, well, it's almost like you had some kind of contagious disease. You know, Melbourne is a parochial and I also, you know, they don't the they're not particularly fond of Sydney to suggest that these two shock jock FM radio people, Kyle and Jackie show could broadcast into Melbourne and be successful. 00:12:08:09 - 00:12:27:17 Unknown I mean, I could I could have told them from day one, you wasting your time. Well, Melbourne's Melburnians have a degree of taste. Yes, I think, and also even even in the, you know, the shock jock sphere, we've had relatively upmarket performers who didn't go into Mitchell, I mean, which was hardly the same new Metro instead of Alan Jones. 00:12:27:17 - 00:12:47:17 Unknown It's there's there's a big thing. Well, O'Reilly and with no disrespect. Right. Look, that's the right style. But it's not Neil. Neil's very it's very, very different. And even I mean, even the Herald Sun compared with the Daily Telegraph, cos maybe because the Herald Sun was dealt, Herald culture was still there was never quite as tabloid as the telly. 00:12:47:17 - 00:13:15:13 Unknown The different cities, the different markets and it's an interesting challenge to media outlets because basically with those shrinking revenues, they are looking for opportunities to commoditize and national as a coverage. So yeah, rather than have 2 or 3, you know, capital city programs, you've got one booming and all. Yeah. Commercially it make sense. But it underestimates the fact that, yeah, we're based in quite different states, different cultures, different communities. 00:13:15:13 - 00:13:39:24 Unknown Yes. It's going to be interesting. I think we see the bigger outlets going this way. I mean, I think it potentially though, does open up more opportunities for more, more localized coverage down the track. yeah, that might be more through websites, Facebook groups and so on. But, but I think that the more we say national media or operations, the more opportunities there are for some, you know, resurgence of locally based news. 00:13:40:00 - 00:14:01:01 Unknown Now, talking about what Melbourne does much better than Sydney is union thuggery. I was wondering when you get down there then that does many things better than Sydney. I mean, you've got underworld gangland figures as well, but, I think union thuggery going back to the days of, of the BLF. now we've got the CFMEU. 00:14:01:01 - 00:14:35:24 Unknown Mark, what do you think? I mean, that's a union in crisis, too, if there ever was. Oh, well, I you'd have to say they're probably Australia's most besieged brand. I think at the moment that the CFMEU and it's interesting to see where got this is all obviously prompted by, my mate, Nick McKenzie that the, you know, Australia's really preeminent investigative reporter doing that series across nine Adelaide side Sydney Morning Herald IFR and importantly 60 minutes called building bad I include Adele Ferguson and came a climate in that as well. 00:14:35:24 - 00:15:02:13 Unknown Thanks for listening. yeah. Listen I'll, I'll give it might of of of Kate's. I think she's, I think she's fantastic. as is Adele. Yeah. But the sheer volume and impact of the stuff that Nick's been doing lately, I think is, is is is gobsmacking. And I wonder how he can, keep up with it, but, I mean, those allegations are, you know, and is on the board. 00:15:02:13 - 00:15:27:06 Unknown Yeah. They're paying it. Yeah. They they those on your bloody admin committee I had had you know, crims in there, they there's another member of the, the New South Wales admin committee for the CFMEU who got, charge for, for, drug dealing after a couple of, say, CFMEU officials were, were, busted, busted selling drugs out of a, a union car. 00:15:27:06 - 00:16:04:03 Unknown I mean, interestingly, I mean, we often we advise organizations that are under, under the spotlight, that they normally a lot more respectable in the CFMEU. I'm placed on police side. Yes. but but that, you know, there was at least some sensibility of getting in front and saying that freight train dumbing down the track because you had the infamous, Victorian state Secretary John, resigned his post the day before the, the first story was, was was published. 00:16:04:05 - 00:16:34:00 Unknown but after then, the rest of the union and the leadership, including, I mean, both the, the, the leaders at the moment in remaining leaders in Victoria and, New South Wales have serious questions and allegations and investigations running on. There are some charges, in, in, in play. And there's a real question mark over the role of the national secretary who's trying to say, hey, that's fine. 00:16:34:02 - 00:17:04:00 Unknown Also, but nothing to say here. Oh, fixed the the channel seven response. Move, move, move right along. We can we can deal with it. And that is not good enough. And it is, it's seeing, increasing pressure for the, the CFMEU to be put into administration as say, I mean, when a labor when a lot of the government thinks the stench is so bad that they actually place a trade union into administration, then, you know, they really have overstepped the mark by a long way. 00:17:04:00 - 00:17:25:19 Unknown But look, talking about John, said cam, he's solution to the whole situation is that he's got himself a nice new lovely neck tattoo. I don't know if you saw it. I didn't say that. Mark. With all caps. God forgives the CFMEU. You doesn't do I dare point out the missing comma and the apostrophe in doesn't? I don't know, but I think I think he got the message across loud and clear. 00:17:25:19 - 00:17:42:20 Unknown He doesn't get it. Did you hear it? He got the word spelt right. Di. He got the words spelt right. But I think they probably should have been, a comma after forgives n, but there's definitely no apostrophe in doesn't. Yeah. Interesting to see where to go. I think they have to put them in administration and do a clean out. 00:17:42:20 - 00:18:08:13 Unknown I think the Fair Work Commission, which is a relatively, ineffectual workplace cop cop on the beat, says that there's 300 CFMEU officials, around the country who should be, should be clean out, including National Secretary Jack Smith. so this is going to play out in the courts unless they got great branding. Well, well, yeah. 00:18:08:18 - 00:18:29:04 Unknown What would we advise them to do? I'll make the difficulty, the difficulty labor has in pushing. You should just decide. Deregister. That's what they did years ago. Do they all builders laborers Federation and effectively a lot of people went elsewhere, went into the CFMEU. Yeah. I mean, you've got the various divisions of the CFMEU who could who are not tied up with the same brush. 00:18:29:04 - 00:18:49:22 Unknown I mean, the forestry guys certainly do not have the same kind of reputation of the construction guys. The maritime guys. Well, it's been a while, but they're not exactly squeaky clean. Yeah, I think that, yeah, I mean, I think that this will, this will play out in the, in the courts and it will be if, if the union is smart, embrace it. 00:18:50:03 - 00:19:17:04 Unknown Go a little bit. It may think so that there is almost because I have always been out lawyers. I've been the muscle of the labor union movement. They've been sort of standing up for the rights of workers. So that's how they portray it. And with everyone's against us because we're trying to bring down the system. well, I think that there'd be a real hard core in there that would almost see, this is a is is as a as a badge of honor. 00:19:17:04 - 00:19:44:24 Unknown Look, they're all conspiring against us. We've we've got to stay there. I don't think there is going to be a simple end to this. And I actually think it's going to be a continual problem for the Albanese government. Oh, 100%. And unless I can act more promptly and more effectively and I have and I when you're lying on the courts to change things, might things take things take a bit of time, but also, I mean, the number of people, the proportion of people in the private sector who are who are union members now is is tiny. 00:19:45:01 - 00:20:05:02 Unknown and the you know, we know the coalition will go hard on, you know, you know, asking people to to join the dots between the hardcore trade union movement and, and the Labor Party. I mean, the party gets a large amount of its funding from either from the trade union movement or from some of those, in industry funds who actually I've also got large shareholdings from the unions themselves. 00:20:05:02 - 00:20:27:18 Unknown So, yeah, it's a it's a big, big problem for the labor government. Yeah. So but turning to an issue that the public actually cares about, it's sport. And, and while we've we've seen the golden glow of Olympic slowly starting to, to fade again, we're seeing one of our major national codes, I AFL, the major national code. 00:20:27:18 - 00:20:46:23 Unknown Mark, thank you so much. Nothing that Melbourne does better than Sydney. Yarra aside, I'm going get in trouble for my Sydneysiders is footy. Yeah. But again, again it's racism. And part of the problem is that the clubs in the AFL have tried to take a leading role in in championing the quality, diversity and all those sorts of things. 00:20:47:00 - 00:21:13:05 Unknown but they continue to have some practices which are questionable and certainly attracting serious, serious, serious, criticism. We've got that those long running Hawthorn, allegations by some former indigenous players of, of racism, that have just been boiling away for a year or two and, and and they're finally hitting the courts. Yeah. And it's not good. 00:21:13:07 - 00:21:31:03 Unknown Not good news for former coach Alastair Clarkson. And it's a pity Chris Fagan is now on. Chris is now coach of the Brisbane Lions of course. And then we also have the latest latest allegations leveled against the Collingwood Football Club. And and and we should disclose here. Mark, I am a member of the Collingwood Football Club. You're a Carlton supporter. 00:21:31:03 - 00:21:49:06 Unknown So neither of us could actually be 100% objective on this. But we'll try our best. And a big problem now for Collingwood, of course, is their CEO, Craig Kelly. There's action being taken in the Federal Court by a former head of the First Nation strategy, Mark Cleaver. He claims that Kelly made slurs and jokes about indigenous culture and physically assaulted him. 00:21:49:12 - 00:22:21:10 Unknown Collingwood, will defend the action in court. Craig Kelly denies any of the allegations, but for Collingwood, it's a big problem because of course you've got form, haven't you, Matt? Good form, good form and I mean, I remember I was working on the Sunday age back, back when at that game where, where Nicky Winmar got, got Jack of, the constant stream of, of racial abuse coming from the Collingwood supporters in, in the stands at Victoria Park. 00:22:21:12 - 00:22:40:21 Unknown Yep. yeah. Brave, brave soul to tread foot and lead, from an opposition club. But there's a sport I got to say. But but, yeah, in those that classic moment where, he, after that, they won the games and got the signs, and he pulled up his boots and pointed to his chest and and basically an iconic photograph. 00:22:40:22 - 00:23:05:10 Unknown Yeah, I'm back on black and I'm proud and it's fantastic as fantastic sports. But for guys, why not be snapped the pic and came back, jumping up and down to, to the editor that it ran on the front page. But there's also the, the, the, the report, the independent report that Collingwood commissioned quite recently into systemic racism in the club, which was which uncovered systemic racism in the club. 00:23:05:10 - 00:23:25:11 Unknown So and, you know, Eddie McGuire tried to claim, he said it was a proud day for the Collingwood Football Club. That's the proudest day. and it's just Eddie, you know, I don't think it is a deliberate racist, but the trouble is that there's stuff that just comes out casually and unthinkingly. And again, your mates have got form on these bin. 00:23:25:14 - 00:23:48:18 Unknown I mean, it was, he, there was the, the whole incident with the, the ongoing and terrible abuse, of Adam Goodes, which I'm proud to say that at the Edmund, when I was hitting the age, we took a strong, strong stand and said, it's black and white, you know, it's racism and it's wrong. So it wasn't just limited to one particular club going off to Gucci. 00:23:48:18 - 00:24:16:05 Unknown There was just a general systemic racism by a lot of supporters in the AFL, because Gucci did to be a proud black man and stand up to people and everyone. it and I didn't like that. No. Can you please, Mike? Because he'd but he'd been made Australian of the year, I think, and spoke out on those issues and, you know, don't like it when those uppity folks, give it give the, give, give, give the system a hard time there, but hold the mirror up to society kind of thing. 00:24:16:08 - 00:24:38:02 Unknown Now, now, you'd probably defend Eddie's response to that, wouldn't you think? Well, same thing, but I didn't defend his response to to the way he handled the media conference following the the report. No, I think he totally stuff. I know. But in terms of let's go back to in terms in terms of those that abuse of of goods, you'd probably you'd probably say he's know solid bloke did the right thing. 00:24:38:06 - 00:25:02:13 Unknown Eddie McGuire. Yeah. Well let's go and have a look at that because I wrote about an let's go back to 2013. And this is a really classic example. As I wrote at the time, I wrote, I wrote about this in a, in a, in a magazine at my old firm. And I wrote, rarely has a crisis with the potential to seriously damage a brand unfolded so rapidly in front of so many people and been dealt with so proactively and expeditiously, and really has all that fine work unraveled so spectacularly a few days later. 00:25:02:13 - 00:25:20:09 Unknown Now this is the Eddie McGuire Adam Goodes incident in 2003, and it was the start of the indigenous round, which is, you know, a really great initiative by the AFL that they, you know, that they held up quite proudly. And suddenly late in the game, Adam Goodes points at somebody in the crowd. He's clearly very distressed. He's is in tears and he goes off the field. 00:25:20:09 - 00:25:36:09 Unknown It's clearly what's happened. Somebody in the crowd economy supporter almost certainly has racially vilified Gould. Well, we know a young girl so young at the time we didn't know that. We thought it was hard either way. I mean, I was mortified. I was watching on TV. I thought all here we go, here we go anyway. Well, Eddie did the right thing initially. 00:25:36:15 - 00:25:52:20 Unknown As soon as I saw him, when he went straight to the Swans change room, he found Goodes. He was going to be on TV. He had a press conference saying, this is absolutely not on it. So that was good. Crisis management. And then and then for six weeks, for five days, eight, five days later, there was a musical for King Kong in Melbourne musical. 00:25:52:23 - 00:26:11:11 Unknown He actually says they should get Adam Goodes to come down to the premiere of the King Kong musical. You can see them doing that, can't you? Maguire said goodbye. You know, the big, not the ape thing, the whole thing. I'm just saying the pumping him up and mucking around and that sort of stuff I can imagine people listening to were just thinking, I'm watching a car crash. 00:26:11:15 - 00:26:35:21 Unknown It said history that he's going to, I think might this court case, against Collingwood and allegations of abuse and assault against the head of First Nation strategy by Craig Collie, Craig Kelly, that is going to be another very difficult moment for Collingwood. Has tried very hard to fix this problem, but it just doesn't seem to go away. 00:26:35:23 - 00:26:56:18 Unknown And I got to ask ourselves why they really do. I mean, sorry, I'm I'm sure there's, you know, casual racism in lots of AFL clubs, but Collingwood, every time I think they've got it right they stuff it up. I mean, I think that's enough of a footy given it looks like both sides are going to manage. You can be at the finals next year. 00:26:56:20 - 00:27:14:17 Unknown so I think it's we'll move on and we'll see you all next time I'm take. 00:27:14:19 - 00:27:16:12 Unknown It.