00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:05 Speaker 1 hi and welcome to Up the Creek, where we look at how institutions and individuals found themselves up the proverbial and dissect their efforts to reach calmer waters. I'm Mark. 00:00:22:05 - 00:00:23:23 Speaker 2 Forbes. And I'm Ben Haslem. 00:00:24:00 - 00:00:45:17 Speaker 1 As journeys, we prompted resignations and calls royal commissions. As consultants, we protect reputations and crisis comes. Today we focus our reputation on the hits and misses of 2023, awarding the Golden Eye for turning a PR challenge into an opportunity and the ignominious brand high for the file of the year. Ben, any early favorites for you? 00:00:45:18 - 00:01:01:04 Speaker 2 Well, what happened recently, I think it's fairly obvious it would have to be another Optus file. It's pretty hard to beat Total Communications chaos from a communications company. Then the voice fell flat, rubbing gloss off the Prime Minister and setting reconciliation back years, maybe a generation. 00:01:01:06 - 00:01:17:10 Speaker 1 Well, picking the brand is easy. There's a melbourne Cup field for that. We've got contenders every week. But the gantlet is tough in the best handled crisis as I never go public and it's not like we want to share those success stories. Do eBay. 00:01:17:12 - 00:01:34:06 Speaker 2 Yeah. So let's go back to the first two weeks of January this year. If you can cast your mind that far back. Mark and I'm going to nominate as one of the I think crises that was handled pretty well was Dom Perrottet, who was then the New South Wales Premier and is infamous Nazi costume at his own 21st birthday party, the former premier. 00:01:34:12 - 00:01:50:05 Speaker 2 I think he handled it really well. He, in fact, even is a his opponent, Chris Minns, who is now the premier of New South Wales, praised him at the time, which is a strange thing to do perhaps, but he fessed up. He said, Look, there's a photo around I know of me dressed up as a Nazi at my 21st birthday. 00:01:50:07 - 00:02:05:10 Speaker 2 He apologized to opera. He expressed deep regret. He rang all the Jewish leaders and he broke the yacht himself. He got out on the front foot. And look, he lost the election. But it wasn't because of this at the time. I think a lot of people thought he was going to resign, but he settled down really quickly. It was a job well done. 00:02:05:10 - 00:02:22:12 Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, that's a tip, isn't it, really? It's being able to get out in front and control the narrative and portray yourself in a way that that that's that that's going to work. And he he did that will more often than not, the day I done another one. 00:02:22:14 - 00:02:44:05 Speaker 2 It was a global one which got a lot of coverage here in Australia, which was the Burning Man flood, for want of a better word. And they showed the benefits of preparation when they when the annual Burning Man extravaganza in the Nevada desert experienced torrential rain and flooding, the organizers responded appropriately, both in actions and words. The flooding meant it was on what they call a pyre. 00:02:44:06 - 00:02:55:21 Speaker 2 It's a, you know, dry lake bed. It effectively meant that the people who were there couldn't get out. Even with four wheel drive, you certainly couldn't walk out. The mud apparently was up to their knees. And, you know, this could have been a really nasty PR disaster. 00:02:55:21 - 00:03:13:00 Speaker 1 Well, I suppose in terms of preparation, too, if you're running a festival, all you have to do is go and see the Woodstock movie, too, to know that rain is a possibility. And that can cause, cause, cause massive, massive disruption. I mean, had they actually prepared? 00:03:13:02 - 00:03:31:00 Speaker 2 Yeah, they had. So what they did was actually had this fantastic guide they sent to revelers, for want of a better word beforehand. And it had a whole section on what happens with it if it rains even in the desert. They had a Facebook page which they regularly updated. They had a radio channel on iHeartRadio. They they had wi fi towers. 00:03:31:00 - 00:03:49:18 Speaker 2 They put around the site. They advised people before they came about all the things they needed for weather, wet weather, including battery powered or solar powered radios. Not sure how they work when it's raining, but anyway. And they just provided lots and lots of information to festival goers and beforehand they had what they called table top drills. These are the organizers. 00:03:49:18 - 00:03:58:23 Speaker 2 So they they ran basically a I suppose, a crisis simulation, for want of a better word. This is what we're going to do if it rains and it worked really well. 00:03:59:00 - 00:04:28:11 Speaker 1 Yeah, they're critical, aren't they, those things, because they they they they stress test your plans and preparedness and your people. But so often organizations aren't prepared to do that. I mean, I do love the fact that the rain meant that they had to twice per find the climax of the festival where they burned that John Wood man not because it was too wet, but because I couldn't get the force safety equipment in to stop the fire spreading to the floods. 00:04:28:13 - 00:04:44:03 Speaker 2 And they did finally fanned the flames, albeit a couple of days later, I think it was. But look, the overall vibe from the festival was was very, very positive. And they avoided the, you know, the horrible it was a disaster. I thought I was going to die. I thought I was never going to get out. No one told us anything. 00:04:44:03 - 00:04:55:18 Speaker 2 These people are idiots. I'm never coming back. None of that. And it's been recognized around the world by a lot of crisis experts as a really, really great textbook example of how not only to handle a crisis, but be prepared. 00:04:55:20 - 00:05:19:23 Speaker 1 Well, it wasn't really just neutral, was it? Because it could have been a disaster. It could have been, you know, the death knell for the festival. But they made it look fun in and they they actually had a really positive response from the people. And it actually played well on it. It played well on social media. So it does go to show that that that preparation matters. 00:05:19:24 - 00:05:54:24 Speaker 1 I mean, back home, I suppose. But what I noticed too, is, is the change in fortunes for for the Australian cricket team wasn't that long ago. They're in the midst of a sandpaper sandpaper gate, you know, the cheaters, they, they, they the obnoxious sort of Aussies on the field. But there's a couple of a couple of big victories in in foreign field says has really set them off well and I mean doesn't doesn't Cummins look good. 00:05:55:02 - 00:05:57:16 Speaker 1 Yeah but both are both on and off the field. 00:05:57:18 - 00:06:11:09 Speaker 2 And this was more than just, you know, a moral victory for the Australian cricket team, but for activism. Throughout his career, Cummins has been, you know, Captain Planet Captain woke up, which is I hate that term like captain work but. 00:06:11:09 - 00:06:54:23 Speaker 1 He had that stuff for win win because there's been a fair bit of controversy around this year over sports and sports sponsorship. Where where is that intersection of branding and profile and celebrities and purpose has really come to a bit of a crunch. I mean, we had the the netballers who who were basically well, at least one of the indigenous players took offense at at at generating a Rinehart so massively lucrative sponsorship of the diamonds I understand will be given that he did basically me suggested breeding the Aboriginals out I think back back back in the day. 00:06:54:23 - 00:07:33:03 Speaker 1 But that whole sense of the impact of those sorts of issues on the reputations of the sportspeople, which they now recognize are incredibly valuable, and how it cuts both ways for the brand and Cummins, I mean, he did a few things. He came out in support of taking the knee on Black Lives Matter, and then as someone who believes in climate change took took some issues with with a major fossil fuel derived oil into energy was sponsoring Cricket Australia wanting to be their major sponsor. 00:07:33:09 - 00:07:56:15 Speaker 1 Interestingly, mate, not that long after they took its offer of $40 million sponsorship off the table. But Cummins came to have it pretty well. It was interesting. It was interesting. He stood up and basically said he was emboldened by by the by the by the debates. I haven't seen him actually out front talking too much about climate issues. 00:07:56:15 - 00:08:05:16 Speaker 1 Subsequent. But but he does look like someone He looked like a demon leader on and off the field. 00:08:05:18 - 00:08:08:02 Speaker 2 Helps when you win, though. I think that definitely helped as well. 00:08:08:08 - 00:08:32:00 Speaker 1 I think so. We love, we love we we love when it's made when we love last gasp winners. But I suppose it we've got to make a call here. And I think if if if we're going to recognize the golden hour for this year does come from the sports field but it's it's not the cricketers, it's the women up front this time. 00:08:32:00 - 00:08:58:20 Speaker 1 I think you've got it tough kept to the Matildas, haven't you? That was it was an amazing year. Didn't quite make it through to the final of the World Cup but got to got to the semis and I mean if, if we want back 2022, I mean they were on the ropes, we were knocked out of the, the Asian Cup which was, which was a comp that we were supposedly issuing to win. 00:08:58:22 - 00:09:14:07 Speaker 1 We dropped out of the FIFA top ten rankings in the world, and then the Chinese stuff's an experiment, a bit with pies. And we lost badly a couple of friendlies and there was massive calls for his for his resignation. 00:09:14:07 - 00:09:33:24 Speaker 2 We did that. Yeah. Today, they're the undisputed number one team across all sports in Australia. They're even above Collingwood following a run to the semis of the World Cup and some really smart marketing along the way. It's estimated their brand value has increased from around $40 million to more than $200 million just during the Women's World Cup alone. 00:09:33:24 - 00:09:36:07 Speaker 2 That's a fold increase increase. 00:09:36:09 - 00:10:04:03 Speaker 1 And it wasn't just their on field performance that impressed. I mean, it was they came across and listened. I suspect they are. They did actually seem like a really nice bunch of a bunch of women die. They played exceptionally when it counted. But they they also I mean, like Pat Cummins prepared to use their profile, I suppose, for the greater good. 00:10:04:05 - 00:10:36:03 Speaker 1 They recorded a video during the World Cup pointing out the discrepancy in male and female prize money and really strongly push FIFA for international pay parity with the men. At the moment, I think they get about a quarter of the of the prize money of the blokes. It it just seem like such a smart performance, I think from them as individuals, the marketing people behind the team and the managers who are looking after they, their images say I did it, they did it really well. 00:10:36:03 - 00:10:40:23 Speaker 1 It's interesting, I limited their media gauge and I think to a lot of media, they made sure when they spoke, they. 00:10:40:23 - 00:11:01:06 Speaker 2 Spoke to let them know it was part of the reason. And I think it was it was at Channel seven or one of the major organizations actually hired a helicopter and flew above the training ground. I mean, I know for a fact that the marketing guys, it Football Australia did did have a bit of work to do to convince those in authority that to put the Matildas on an equal footing with the Socceroos. 00:11:01:06 - 00:11:20:18 Speaker 2 I just and they obviously did and they did it really, really well. But social media was such a huge factor. I think in the Matildas they are their most, you know, the and their most authentic selves on across all social media channels. Sam Kerr has 1.8 million Instagram followers and she used the platform not just to promote herself but actually to promote her team mates. 00:11:20:18 - 00:11:32:17 Speaker 2 So, you know, look at the names now that you instantly recognized. Mary Fowler, Courtney Vine, Allie Carpenter, Steph Catley, Mackenzie Arnold, the goalkeeper, everyone knows them now it's just absolutely remarkable. 00:11:32:17 - 00:11:51:21 Speaker 1 Well, I think for a while there, Sam Kerr's calf was trending number one on on on Instagram. That sense of who she play won't see. There's nothing about, you know, that sense of both hope and expectation and potential disappointment. It's a great storyline to pull in the blinders and she played that so well. 00:11:51:21 - 00:12:09:08 Speaker 2 Yeah, we're not suggesting she didn't have a calf strain, by the way. I just think I think that was the case. Look, I think Gen Z and the Millennials also played a huge role in the success of the Matildas. I love this line from Kevin Argus at RMIT University, who noted that the World Cup felt inclusive and safe. 00:12:09:08 - 00:12:27:02 Speaker 2 And I think that's absolutely true. This is what Kevin said, He said Gen Z have a lived experience that is more diverse, inclusive and fair minded than earlier generations. This is reflected across the women's teams in the competition with a record 96 women identifying as LGBTQ. According to Outsports.com. 00:12:27:05 - 00:12:30:07 Speaker 1 You forgot the plus. What's wrong? I thought I thought you were white. 00:12:30:08 - 00:12:51:06 Speaker 2 I'm quoting. I'm quoting. I'm quoting. Okay, So I'm sorry if I've misquoted you there, Kevin, but that's what I read. And also the other thing, too, is around the market, look, a shout out to my old friend Jen Bramble, who heads up PR at News Corp and Marketing Jen as well, because we all work together for different newspapers in Melbourne, in the distant past. 00:12:51:06 - 00:12:55:10 Speaker 1 You work for the Evil Empire and I work for Fairfax. 00:12:55:10 - 00:13:21:03 Speaker 2 Yeah, that's right, The Age one of the world's great newspapers, apparently. Anyway, moving on. But apparently, as the story goes, the Triple M in Brisbane were talking about the World Cup and they kept referring to the Courier Mail as the Courier Mail. So much, so much publicity where they giving to Sam and Jen saw the transcript. So she rang the editor of the Courier Mail and said, Look, could we actually possibly change the masthead to Courier Mail? 00:13:21:03 - 00:13:39:16 Speaker 2 And they went, Yeah, okay, let's give it a go. And so we got the Courier Mail, but we also got the Herald, Sam the Advertise curr in Adelaide and the Daily Telegraph up here in Sydney. So and News Corp obviously saw this as an opportunity to grow their own brand, but also an opportunity also to promote women's sport, which I think was brilliant. 00:13:39:18 - 00:13:57:18 Speaker 2 They created the Sam Kerr Mega Wal poster and you've got a quarter of the poster each day in the newspaper in the all you stuck them together and so high that many people went out and bought the paper for four days in a row. Or yes, you could download them from the from the website, but guess what? You had to take out a subscription to be able to do so. 00:13:57:18 - 00:14:02:15 Speaker 2 So clever marketing by News Corp and great marketing for the Matildas as well. 00:14:02:16 - 00:14:28:01 Speaker 1 But I think it was great marketing all round. It had you had a team that was playing right ahead, accessible people who stand a good on the on the on the crest of crest of the wave in many senses in terms of changing attitudes to sport and particularly women's sport. But it was both sitcoms approach and much as I hate to say, but I think the marketing really helped. 00:14:28:01 - 00:14:50:08 Speaker 1 I mean, I thought there was so many of those really those ads with the little kids, you know, the you know, the the the athletes as five year old girls sort of growing up. It was just really personable and engaging. And I think it was really looking at how all those different facets of things it plays into reputation image. 00:14:50:10 - 00:15:11:03 Speaker 1 If done well together, it's got an effect in it in the that's greater than the whole end, not hurt by the fact you've got an actual global superstar in in Sam Kerr. Whoo hoo. Congratulations, Sam. You've won the gold and I hopefully she'll find a space for it in the in the trophy cabinet. 00:15:11:03 - 00:15:15:20 Speaker 2 Straight to the pool room, I reckon. And I don't know, I reckon Sam might have a pool room. You seem to know. 00:15:16:00 - 00:15:30:13 Speaker 1 She might have a pool in the pool room. I suspect might. It's. But. But time to move on to the the the ward that everyone talks about, but no one wants to get the brand off. 00:15:30:15 - 00:15:48:03 Speaker 2 Okay, so, but first we get to before we get to the brand either and I've got to chuckle. Your two boys get together no matter what our ages are, we always have to have a, you know, a bit of a poo joke and they don't we. So we should make a brief mention. First of fact, I drove through it on the way here to, to record this podcast the current Rozelle interchange shemozzle. 00:15:48:06 - 00:15:54:21 Speaker 1 But you know you know that no one outside of Tinsel Town gets this stuff about Sydney traffic I understand. 00:15:54:21 - 00:16:20:08 Speaker 2 Look, I know the rest of Australia couldn't care less, but how were billions and billions of dollars spent on one of the biggest underground motorway interchanges in the world? And then it opened to the mother of all traffic jams. It completely defies explanation. In fact, Aussie Hollywood star rebel Wilson even instead her frustration to the world quote Thanks Roseville interchange for now making a 15 minute trip into the city 90 minutes via Victoria Road wtf. 00:16:20:09 - 00:16:21:08 Speaker 2 Exclamation mark. 00:16:21:08 - 00:16:31:15 Speaker 1 Exclamation mark in that if that was a rebel impersonation, that has to be the worst I've ever heard. Right. But again, another sign of how social media can infect and escalate across is. 00:16:31:18 - 00:16:55:06 Speaker 2 House in pitch perfect plenty of times. That said, despite the cluster of trucks, transport for New South Wales in the State Government have actually handled this pretty well, at least from a communications perspective. There were regular press conferences, statements released via social media interviews with the Department head Josh Murray and the Roads Minister John Graham, officials along the route guiding people in the right direction, etc.. 00:16:55:08 - 00:17:14:15 Speaker 2 So look what was a dreadful crisis really, or issue was I think, handled as well as could be expected. But the biggest one is without doubt to get a bit of politics into this are the Greens. They oppose this entire project and it sits right in the middle of their inner west heartland. The seats of Balmain and Newtown in particular, their voters were affected. 00:17:14:17 - 00:17:18:19 Speaker 2 At least Labor can blame the previous Coalition government who oversaw its planning and construction. 00:17:18:19 - 00:17:40:14 Speaker 1 Well, at least we have nominated and then sort of knocked out of contention in one fell swoop for the brand or that mob. But so let's get back to it. But I mean, mind you, Matt, it's going to be hard to top last year's inaugural winner where we had the founder of Grill'd and say our dock was locked distilleries, lot of money in distilleries these days. 00:17:40:16 - 00:18:10:01 Speaker 1 He tried to duck and weave when the Australian and no less a Juno than cherry Markson and like a dog with a bone I can tell you from experience got hold of a video of him shirtless, smoking a crack pipe and let's say talking dirty Dan, the video call. How dirty? Let's say very dirty, mate. I don't think it would work as a seduction technique, but but, but here we go. 00:18:10:01 - 00:18:36:13 Speaker 1 And Mike is this different beach bike had had the bright idea to get out of this win, win win. Sherry called and said, We're going to run it. They he got onto his CS PR team. He ran back. The Australian said yes we don't worry, we'll yeah, we'll give you the story. We just need a day or two because there's a lot more going on here than you think. 00:18:36:13 - 00:19:04:01 Speaker 1 It's not, it's not what you think and we'll come back to you. And then they basically conduct conduct concocted this story around his bizarre, pathetic to leave them behind. I mean, this guy seriously in front of a camera smoking a crack pipe dressed only in his underwear and that pretty daggy white jokes from from from memory as well. 00:19:04:03 - 00:19:40:02 Speaker 1 And he came up he came up with the excuse that this was all part of an elaborate extortion attempt that happened when he was in Singapore several years ago, taken to a hotel room. And I don't remember what happened next, but I've been out of the money ever since. So in their wisdom, they shot this to they shot this to the age end, which then runs out the story, not just the lines around the extortion attempt, but how the Australian had somehow been a patsy in this. 00:19:40:04 - 00:20:14:01 Speaker 1 Geez, that's really got to win friends and influence people over the evil empire side of the fence. You can say that from you could say that from experience. But of course, Sherry, when when saw this hit the roof, had a look at the video and then they decided to do some detective work. And so this video of the supposed Singapore hotel room, when they actually put the magnifying glass to it, identified a number of very distinctive features in the room, an ornate cornices and so on. 00:20:14:03 - 00:20:37:16 Speaker 1 Then went to the photos of the two or three months earlier domain where Jeff had been trying to flog his half house in in the in South Melbourne and identified the very same features. So they managed to they managed to get the story of Hadi and the agent they caught is a patsy in this bizarre, bizarre exercise to make. 00:20:37:18 - 00:20:59:14 Speaker 1 It is still incomprehensible how competent PR person, also a competent journo, would get served up a story like that and think this doesn't pass the pub test, might it? So I think might I find it hard to see how that can be top this this year? But. But who do you fancy? 00:20:59:14 - 00:21:24:20 Speaker 2 Yeah, well, let's just go back overseas again for a brand of potential and go back to women's football. And that brings up Kiss Gate at the World Cup final here in Sydney. I don't know what would have would have done without Watergate, but it's Kiss gate. Spanish Football Federation boss Louis Rubiales kissed Spanish player Jenny Hermoso on the lips during the medal presentation following the World Cup final. 00:21:24:22 - 00:21:29:00 Speaker 2 He said it was consensual. She said it was not increased. 00:21:29:01 - 00:21:55:07 Speaker 1 So in the backdrop of massive tension between the women's side and the administration over pie selections, a bunch of their best players had refused to to play. They wanted to coach sacked, but I mean, the response was just bizarre in the sense that this was, you know, this outcry, including from members of our own national team, was despair. 00:21:55:07 - 00:22:00:00 Speaker 1 You describe them as simply complaints from idiots and stupid people. 00:22:00:02 - 00:22:16:23 Speaker 2 You couldn't make this stuff up. It seems the MeToo movement hadn't reached the highest levels of Spanish football. The whole drama played out for four weeks. I mean, how you can let something like this drag on for four weeks with Rubiales refusing to resign even when the National Football Federation eventually asked him to. So let's have a look along the way. 00:22:16:23 - 00:22:37:22 Speaker 2 Some of the things that happened so rubiales was hit with a restraining order after Jenny Hermoso filed sexual assault allegations against him, dozens of Spanish female footballers issued a statement saying they did not feel safe playing for the national team. Spanish prosecutors filed a lawsuit against Rubiales for sexual assault and coercion that carries a sentence of up to four years in prison. 00:22:37:24 - 00:22:55:03 Speaker 2 He's still there. An investigation by FIFA, which provisionally suspended Rubiales after he claimed he was the victim of a, quote, witch hunt by, quote, false feminists and Spanish women taking to the streets to say, excuse my Spanish, see a garbo, which apparently means it's over. 00:22:55:05 - 00:22:56:16 Speaker 1 It's more like Rebel Wilson. 00:22:56:16 - 00:23:03:01 Speaker 2 They tried and so on. I mean, seriously. But he read the room. He should have been gone in a matter of days. 00:23:03:03 - 00:23:17:16 Speaker 1 Yeah, it's. It's crazy. It's hanging around. It's not realizing that your time is up and you're saving yourself in your organization by going quickly is really the answer. And that was Ellen Joyce's problem as well. They see it, wasn't it? 00:23:17:16 - 00:23:42:03 Speaker 2 Well, it was one of the Irishman's problems. But sacking most of your permanent workforce, selling tickets on phantom flights and forcing people to stay on hold for 4 hours if they were lucky, certainly didn't help. Not to mention allowing the perception to take hold, which Joyce did try to correct towards the end that Qantas had received millions of taxpayer dollars during COVID just to prevent shareholders dividends, to protect shareholders dividends, while seemingly canceling every second flight post-COVID. 00:23:42:05 - 00:23:56:23 Speaker 1 And this was during one of these drawn out I'm going to go, but not quite yet resignations. It just they just never work end. And I think those phantom flights with the last floor you just you just you just you just can't defend that. 00:23:57:04 - 00:24:16:14 Speaker 2 Yeah. And look, it became a popular pastime in Australia didn't it, just to beat up on Qantas. But then that replaced you with a member of his executive team. That's questionable. Vanessa Hudson was Qantas Chief Financial officer and therefore she could be seen not as a solution but as part of the problem. And and I'm not judging Ms.. 00:24:16:14 - 00:24:35:13 Speaker 2 Hudson for one minute. She may do a brilliant job, but it's just that perception and time will tell. They have got a, you know, a fleet refresh coming along and plenty of discounted tickets. There are actually loads of frequent flier tickets available at the moment. So, you know, Hudson may write to the Laurens, as they say in the business. 00:24:35:15 - 00:24:39:19 Speaker 1 They say the error. 00:24:39:21 - 00:24:40:14 Speaker 2 So the. 00:24:40:14 - 00:24:41:14 Speaker 1 Plane looks like. 00:24:41:14 - 00:24:42:09 Speaker 2 Plane level. 00:24:42:11 - 00:24:47:20 Speaker 1 I think that will do. But but what about our other big contenders for brand? 00:24:48:00 - 00:25:14:18 Speaker 2 Well, it has to be Optus, doesn't it? I mean, it's fresh in our minds. The telco loses its entire mobile phone Internet network, leaving millions of Australians waking up to cyber isolation. And it takes several hours for the CEO, Kelly Bayer Rosmarin, to even conduct one major interview. And in the interim, the Communications Minister, Michelle Rowland, fronts the media further in, forcing the view that Optus was impotent and the whole situation was out of its control. 00:25:14:18 - 00:25:36:06 Speaker 1 But that it's that golden rule of crisis. Comms isn't it? Don't leave a vacuum because someone else is going to come in and fill it. You lose control of the message and when you're silent it looks like you're hiding something. And then when she finally did start talking, she blamed her parent company, SingTel, for the outage, which may or may not have been true. 00:25:36:06 - 00:25:45:06 Speaker 1 She backflipped on that on that claim subsequently. But in any workplace, I think blaming blaming the boss for your biggest mistake is is not a good move. 00:25:45:09 - 00:26:01:20 Speaker 2 Was it a crisis plan? I mean, you'd certainly hope so, wouldn't you? But had Optus ever bothered to run a crisis simulation of an outage of this scale? I mean, surely after the disastrous breach of the data breach of 2022, they should have been, you know, pretty battle hardened. So what are you what are your thoughts? 00:26:01:21 - 00:26:26:17 Speaker 1 Well, both times it's it's the comms, it's the response where they failed not being there and they're not actually saying the things that cut through when they did. But bad as it was all I think for for the brand alone, hopefully we can get a special effects drum roll or something of a look. They can only bang one winner. 00:26:26:19 - 00:26:48:20 Speaker 1 And in terms of both its scale and consequences, I don't believe for 2023 you can go past P.W see, I mean, this is a firm that was so firmly on the government teat that has had to as a result, we sell its entire government consultancy business in Australia for just just a pittance. 00:26:48:20 - 00:26:57:18 Speaker 2 It's the princely sum of $1. I think there might have been $1 Australian mark, so that's actually about $0.67 us. I mean it is, it is astounding isn't it. 00:26:57:23 - 00:27:20:21 Speaker 1 It's it. And you just think when you're playing both sides of the defense, you've got to have some precautions and some measures of probity, integrity. And I tell you what it played ABC, if they had China's walls, they had to be made of cardboard. If that I mean, this was just a brazen breach of trust, ethics and law. 00:27:20:23 - 00:27:52:00 Speaker 1 You advise Canberra on how to crack down on the big multinationals who are paying no tax. I think what eventually came out of what they called the Google tax and that was basically 30 of our biggest multinationals that weren't paying a cent in tax. He helped them with that and then you look at profiting from that, then you go and you lie about the fact and you block any investigation into it. 00:27:52:02 - 00:28:24:03 Speaker 1 I mean, this story goes back to 2014 when it was a tax partner of P.W. See, Peter Collins signed a confidentially confidentiality agreement about advising Treasury on those crackdowns. And then when the government announced laws, he was on the email to all the partners straight away saying, this is a great business opportunity. I think he talked about a treasure trove at one point, and I specifically targeted the people who they were supposedly helping crack down on tax avoidance of. 00:28:24:04 - 00:28:45:20 Speaker 2 It's like selling somebody a home security system and then going around telling all the local burglars how to get through the security system. But it's also damaging not just for P.W see, I mean, it's damaging for the other big four who do make huge amounts of money out of government consultancy. I mean, there's an argument that it's actually sort of dumbed down our public service because they they do so much outsourcing now. 00:28:45:20 - 00:28:53:22 Speaker 2 So, you know, maybe there is a silver lining out of this that it will get will get better and broader people in the public service. And we won't be spending billions of dollars on consultants. 00:28:53:22 - 00:28:54:22 Speaker 1 In their naivete. 00:28:54:24 - 00:28:58:11 Speaker 2 Except for communications consultancies. Of course, they were very important. 00:28:58:14 - 00:29:18:16 Speaker 1 But I mean, it's it's often yeah, you go back to Watergate, it's the cover up that kills you and just astounds me that that from 2006 the ATO was getting suspicious, asking questions in P.W. say refused to cooperate and actually stymied any investigations. 00:29:18:17 - 00:29:41:21 Speaker 2 And then last December, the Tax Practitioners Board announced that it had deregistered Collins as a tax agent for two years. The Australian Financial Review pressed PWC for details, downplayed the issue, denying its leadership, was aware of what happened. And when the board's CEO appeared before Senate estimates in February, he revealed that between 20 and 30 PWC partners and staff had been involved in sharing the confidential information. 00:29:41:23 - 00:30:05:10 Speaker 1 Yeah, which totally contradicted what he said, what he'd said a few weeks, a few weeks early. And there's a couple of very determined senators who made sure that stuff got tabled. And from then they, they they were toast, you would think. But still, it's CEO Tom Seymour. Well now ex-CEO talked about this is just being a perception issue. 00:30:05:12 - 00:30:06:14 Speaker 2 Well yes. 00:30:06:16 - 00:30:07:17 Speaker 1 Which spread worldwide. 00:30:07:17 - 00:30:10:13 Speaker 2 Did became a global story. Yeah. Yeah. 00:30:10:15 - 00:30:26:06 Speaker 1 And I think there's some real lessons here for consultants and governments who now rely on the private sector having shrunk their own departments, having their dependency on consultants whose motives might be quite different to being in the public service CCS. 00:30:26:08 - 00:30:35:05 Speaker 2 But hang on, we are we private consultants, Mark, I mentioned before that keep employing the communications consultants, but you know, maybe have a hard look at the other guys. 00:30:35:07 - 00:30:42:00 Speaker 1 But we don't we don't play by sides of the fence. That's true. So all our clients whose parents are driven snow aren't die. 00:30:42:00 - 00:30:52:20 Speaker 2 Yeah. So looks like yeah, congratulations to PWC on on winning this year's brownie icon reputation's award for the most poorly handled crisis. 00:30:52:22 - 00:31:26:06 Speaker 1 I'm not sure that it'll go in their pool cabinet mate. It's not the most attractive of of trophies. Rather. Rather rather realistic. But. But that's that's it for for us and reputation for the year and that is for for this episode. But we'll see you next time up the break which.